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Andrea:
Prije svega, iskrene čestitke i pohvale portalu, pratim ga već neko vrijeme i mnogo sam naučila čitajući informativne članke.
Predlažem temu na koju bih poslije uputila i ostale kolege prevoditelje kad im zatreba pomoć povjesničara.
Prevodim roman s engleskog o životu u Rimu za doba Oktavijanove vladavine. Ima li dobrovoljaca za rafal pitanja? ;D

Dinko:
sigurno će se naći netko
fire away što bi naš narod rek'o  :P

Andrea:
super!
okej, prvo u vezi s Kleopatrom i Markom Antonijem. Kaže engleski original da su osnovali nekakvo društvo The Society of Inimitable Livers, udrugu koja navodno promiče kulturu i umjetnost, a zapravo je izlika za pijančevanje ;D
I još u vezi s njima - neki pouzdani povijesni izvori do kojih sam došla upućuju na the Order of inseparable in death, to su Kleopatra i Marko Antonije osnovali nakon poraza u bitci kod Akcija - imamo li na hrvatskom pojmove za te događaje?
e sad, spominje mi se vladar Geta - u originalu stoji "Cotiso" - ali tog čovjeka nisam našla. Neki povijesni izvori izjednačavaju Gete i Dačane, što mi je otežalo potragu. Za "Cotisa" se u romanu tvrdi da je svojevremeno bio namijenjen Juliji, Oktavijanovoj kćeri, naravno brak iz interesa. Molim pomoć - vladar Geta???
I, da zasad zaključim, u kontekstu borbi gladijatora spominju mi se "Telegenii" - tko su bili oni? U romanu se spominju da ih je južno od Kartage pronašao konzul koji je sagradio rimski amfiteatar.

Toliko zasad i unaprijed zahvaljujem na pomoći!

Dinko:
antiku poznajem, uglavnom, općenito, tak da bih prepustio forumašima koji su u tom dobu više doma, a ima ih

Nego, sjećam se da sam svojevremeno čitao da su Telegenii živjeli na području današnjeg Tunisa (znači relativno blizu Kartage), te da su sudjelovali u borbama protiv zvjeradi u arenama i tako zarađivali. Brzinskom pretragom sam naletio na ovo.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/telegenii.html

kiseli1:

--- Quote ---vladar Geta - u originalu stoji "Cotiso" - ali tog čovjeka nisam našla. Neki povijesni izvori izjednačavaju Gete i Dačane, što mi je otežalo potragu. Za "Cotisa" se u romanu tvrdi da je svojevremeno bio namijenjen Juliji, Oktavijanovoj kćeri, naravno brak iz interesa. Molim pomoć - vladar Geta???
--- End quote ---


starogrcko ime za dacane su "geti"


--- Quote ---The Dacians were known as Geta (plural Getae) in Greek writings, and as Dacus (plural Daci) and Getae in Roman documents; also as Dagae and Gaete—see the late Roman map Tabula Peutingeriana. Strabo tells that the original name of the Dacians was "daoi", which could be explained with a possible Phrygian cognate "daos", meaning "wolf". This assumption is enforced by the fact that the Dacian standard, the Dacian Draco, had a wolf head.

It can be confusing that the geographical name "Dacia" was much later also used during the Middle Ages by the Roman Catholic Church for its northernmost province, namely Denmark-Norway-Sweden (Scandinavia) and even for Denmark alone. In some historical documents, members of royalty of that area have been called "of Dacia".
--- End quote ---


Cotiso:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotiso


--- Quote ---Kaže engleski original da su osnovali nekakvo društvo The Society of Inimitable Livers, udrugu koja navodno promiče kulturu i umjetnost, a zapravo je izlika za pijančevanje
--- End quote ---


Vjerojatno te muci rijec "livers"  odnosno jetra :)
Kod starih Rimljana (kao i kod njihovih predcasnika), jetra su bila centar za "strast"  (Galen,Horacije)
"fervens difficili bile tumet iecur" Horacijeva izreka

Society of Inimitable Livers bi bilo "Societas iocinera imitabile", ili Drustvo neponovljivih (nezajazljivih) strasti , sto je zapravo i bilo (seks i gastrolatrija), po sjecanju prijatelja Plutarhovog djede


--- Quote ---For Antony and Cleopatra euphoric entertainment followed prodigal feast, in observance of a sort of pact the two made, one they termed the Inimitable Livers. “The members,” Plutarch explains, “entertained one
another daily in turn, with an extravagance of expenditure beyond measure or belief.”
From an odd, under-the-stairs friendship comes an intimate view of Cleopatra’s kitchen that winter. A royal cook promises to secret his friend Philotas into the palace to witness the preparations for one of her suppers;he will be astonished by the goings-on.
The kitchen is predictably electric with shouting and swearing, at cooks, waiters, and wine stewards; amid the frezy sit mounds of provisions. Eight wild boars turn on spits. A small army of staff bustles about.
Philotas, a young medical student, marvels at the size of the crowd expected for dinner. His friend can only laugh at his naďveté. Quite the opposite, he explains. The operation is at once highly precise and entirely imprecise:
“The guests are not many, only about twelve; but everything that is set before them must be at perfection, and if anything was but one minute ill-timed, it was spoiled. And, said he, maybe Antony will dine just now, maybe not this hour, maybe he will call for wine, or begin to talk, and will put it off. So that,” he continued, “it is not one, but many dinners must ready, as it is impossible to guess at his
hour.” Having overcome his surprise and completed his education, the wide-eyed Philotas went on to become a prominent physician, who told his fabulous tale to a friend, who handed it down to his grandson, who happened to be Plutarch.
--- End quote ---


trebas uzeti  u obzir obicaje (religiju ) onog vremena; Kleopatra je Grkinja (helenisticki odgojena ) i bahanalije joj nisu strane.Ekscesivnost po tom pitanju je vezano za proslave "plodnosti" (kult Lete, u Egiptu kult Ozirisa,  npr.) , dok je Antonije bio poznat po svojim ekscesima sa kurtizanama i kocijama , jos  u Rimu. Ovo drustvo je bilo zamjenjeno kasnije sa drugim


--- Quote ---Cleopatra and Antony dissolved the Society of the Inimitable Livers to found another, every bit that association’s equal in “splendor, luxury, and sumptuosity.” Out of black humor or bleak despair, they called this new society the Companions to the Death. Those who reclined on the plush palace couches vowed to die with their hosts.
--- End quote ---


Korijen imena ovog drustva je u legendi o faraonu, kojem je prorociste reklo da ce umrijeti za 6 godina, a on je zivio 12 (red seksa, red gastrolatrije)

citati iz : Schiff Stacy, "Cleopatra: a Life"

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